A Night of Fleischer Magic at the Museum of the Moving Image

In the early half of the 20th century, the Fleischer Brothers - Max and Dave - created groundbreaking animated shorts that not only helped define the medium but also inspired artists and audiences for decades to come. Koko the Clown, Betty Boop, and Popeye are among the most iconic characters in animation history, embodying a gritty, surreal New York spirit that few other cartoons have ever replicated.

In my humble opinion, Disney may have made the prettiest films, but the Fleischer cartoons were the most interesting. While Mickey and Minnie were manhandling livestock in sunny barnyards, Betty Boop and friends were crashing dank jazz clubs, discovering underground cults, and breaking the space-time continuum. You know, for kids!

Sadly, the post-war era was not kind to the Fleischer legacy. Legal entanglements, family disputes, and the looming shadow of Disney’s ever-growing empire pushed these visionary films to the sidelines. For years, you were more likely to find Fleischer cartoons in dusty VHS bargain bins than in retrospectives or multiplexes.

But great art is sticky and that weird Fleischer mojo has proven hard to shake. Just look at the recent success of Boop! The Musical and the countless Fleischer toys at Comic-Con. Audiences are rediscovering the charm and strangeness of these early works. Thankfully, they’re not alone.

Enter the Fabulous Fleischer Cartoons Restored: a passionate effort led by members of the Fleischer family and an equally determined team of archivists and artists. Together, they’ve been untangling the legal cobwebs, unlocking archival vaults, and painstakingly restoring these century-old films to their sparkling, monochromatic glory.

As a lifelong Fleischer fan, this feels like nothing short of a miracle. Watching these films in pristine condition is like stepping into a time machine, allowing new generations to fully appreciate the artistry and originality of these animated treasures.

Recently, I had the honor of hosting a screening of the newly restored silent Koko the Clown films at the phenomenal Museum of the Moving Image in Queens, NY. The event featured live piano accompaniment, an introduction from Max Fleischer’s great-grandson, and a panel discussion with a few fellow Fleischer fanatics.

Joining me were three animation luminaries: J. J. Sedelmaier (Saturday TV Funhouse), Stephen DeStefano (Primal), and Mark Newgarden (Garbage Pail Kids). Between the four of us, chances are we worked on at least one cartoon that gave you nightmares. We had an incredible time dissecting the films and joyfully geeking out over all things Fleischer.

If you’ve never experienced the strange brilliance of the Fleischer universe, now’s the perfect time to dive in. And if you're already a fan, welcome home.

What follows is an edited transcript of our panel discussion, highlighting some of my favorite moments from the evening of July 12th, 2025.

Aaron Augenblick: It’s such a big deal to be able to watch these awesome cartoons with an audience and live music — it’s really special. And I do want to add that we're only a few miles from the tenement where Max and Dave Fleischer were making those original Koko the Clown shorts. It’s pretty amazing that all this time has passed and we're still watching them because they're so good, so funny, and so creative. The first question I want to throw out is: What was it that first attracted you to the Fleischer cartoons and what did you find unique about them? Mark?

Mark Newgarden: Well, the Fleischer cartoons in New York City, they were on TV constantly. They were like tap water. You turn on the TV and you see Popeye. Betty Boop was on when I was a kid. They were just part of the culture in New York City. It didn't take too long to start appreciating how different they were than some of the other cartoons that were running on other channels. And as I grew older, I started going to museum shows and seeing some of these 1920s-era films. It's pretty remarkable that they're still so entertaining and still so imaginative.

Stephen DeStefano: I think what attracted me was how weird they were. I love the weirdness, and I think there’s something interesting about them. See, I didn't grow up with Betty Boop. Betty Boop wasn't being shown in New York when I was growing up. But Popeye was certainly the thing for me. And the difference between the Fleischers and everybody else was they were in black and white. And that was really noticeable.

MN: You had a color TV?

SD: We did! We were rich — in a very poor way. So yeah, something about the black and white made them very, very different. There's kind of a crackle to the Fleischers that no other studio really had. And they're just so good looking.

J. J. Sedelmaier: I grew up in Chicago, so we didn't have too much exposure to them on television there. But when they did pop up, yeah, they were just weird and funky and rough and raw. But what actually got me interested in being involved in animation were their Superman cartoons, which again, I had never seen on television. I saw a 16-millimeter print in black and white at a festival. That rawness is what was great to see after being exposed to all the sophisticated high-end stuff. It wasn't like a Terrytoon “stupid rawness.” It was a fun, you know, New York rawness.

AA: Do you think that unique rawness, the scrappiness, and the way they're experimenting in these films, just trying things out like, "Let’s put this here, cut that out, tape it to this" — do you feel like that comes from the New York setting they were in?

SS: They're very New York cartoons.

JJS: But the production stuff you're talking about?

AA: I just mean the spirit of invention.

JJS: I think that they did as best as they could do it, with the tools they had, with the people they had —

MN: And the deadlines they had.

JJS: Right. And as soon as they got really good at it — the individual artists and animators — that’s when, you know, Disney and other people started knocking on the door and taking them out of there.

AA: I want to direct a question to Stephen, because you've drawn these characters more than any of us. How would you define the Fleischer style?

SD: Well, that's a good question. There's something really bold about it because it's black and white. You can present these characters in color, but they’re designed to work in black and white. There's just a certain kind of iconography to them. They're so bold. They hit you immediately, which is what a cartoon character should absolutely do. There’s real linework there. That's real pen work. That's extraordinary to see because, I mean, almost nobody can do that anymore. And I struggle to do it. I work on an iPad, so there’s no ink involved at all. Yeah, there's a real craft to what they're doing. All real old-school draftsmanship.

AA: Were you surprised to see the evolution of their style? It was very rapidly changing. I mean, the first one we watched was very clearly rotoscope. It was just very traced. And then within a few years, they were really developing a style and a language with the characters. Did anyone else notice that or think about it?

SD: It's interesting because that's one of the things I absolutely love about old Hollywood cartoons — you can tell when a different animator worked on certain scenes or another film. You can see a different hand. That’s one of the best things about old cartoons for me. Like, oh, that guy did that. But there’s definitely an evolution to the craft for sure.

AA: Speaking of craft, I want to direct a question to J.J., because I’d say you're one of the top animation experts I know. What would you say were the new animation techniques the Fleischers were using in these Koko the Clown shorts that became influential to animation for many decades to come?

JJS: In other words, the evolution of the actual animation process?

AA: What I’m really interested in is the visual language of comedy. They were kind of creating it as they went. Since you’ve worked so much with animation techniques — mimicking styles and the comedy of animation — I’m wondering what you saw that might have been influential.

JJS: First of all, what we’re seeing up there is everyone just trying to figure it out as they go. It’s not like they were using a manual — there really weren’t any, except for Lutz’s book that came out in 1920. I’ve always felt that the Fleischer stuff was better drawn than animated. If you pulled out a drawing, it looked terrific. But that rawness and the struggle you see on screen to make it move as best as possible — that’s what endeared me to it. It wasn’t polished. Back then, that was the best you got. And just the fact that you were seeing things move was probably entertaining in itself.

There are all sorts of techniques up there that, if you dig into how they made animation back then — cutting things out, placing them, registering — it just blows your mind. How was any of it even done? It was all kind of silly and vaudevillian. Raw jokes to get a laugh. What was fun was when they started doing things that only animation could do. You saw that a lot with Felix, too. They took advantage of the fact that these were drawings on film — things you couldn’t do any other way. Once it starts to follow the laws of nature, it’s no fun. It’s when they depart from that — things disappear, pop off, and you just have to accept it — that’s what was fantastic.

AA: I think art is very generational. Someone does something, and then the next generation sees it, builds on it, and adds to it. To your point — it really sings when they do something that could only exist in animation, like a joke that only works as a cartoon. You can see the evolution. In the beginning, you're right — they were still following vaudevillian rules, jokes that could have been done on a stage. And these early animations were what the next generation of animators grew up watching. Everyone here likes Looney Tunes, right? These were the cartoons people like Tex Avery and Bob Clampett probably saw as kids, and they added to it. You can see how the jokes morphed over time and, in some ways, deepened. I think that's exciting.

Speaking of “raw,” Mark, you worked on one of my favorite — and I think one of the most important — comic magazines ever made, “Raw.” I was wondering, since “Raw” was so representative of a specific place and time — and I think these cartoons are as well — what do you think the Fleischers were saying about what it was like to live in New York City in the 20th century?

MN: Ouch. (Laughter). I don’t think they thought in terms of what they were saying. I think the idea was getting a quick laugh, moving on to the next thing, trying to do a little bit better, and hoping nobody remembered what they did last month.

AA: But there has to be something going on there, just based on the fact that they were living in the city and existing here. You don't think any of that seeps in?

MN: Oh yeah, sure. I mean, it has a very New York sensibility. If you compare it to the West Coast studios — Disney, for example — they were often doing very rural-type scenarios. But here, the clown goes out the window and we see Times Square. I mean, that’s about as New York as it gets.

JJS: I love the way they’re hopping around. In one cartoon, you’re on Eastern Parkway in Brooklyn, then suddenly on top of 1600 Broadway. You get these quick little shots of different places, and I’m thinking, where is that? I don’t think they’re saying, “this is what life is like in New York” — they’re saying, “this is what life is like,” and it just happens to be in New York.

SD: They're New Yorkers, yeah. It's sort of coming through that filter.

AA: The fact that they were in New York and they were going up to Harlem and seeing jazz shows.

JJS: Seeing jazz shows at 1600 Broadway! There was a nightclub in their building. The Mecca Studebaker Building was a hub of music. They had a sign on the side of the building dedicated to Bix Beiderbecke, who used to play there. So, they were right there — like, “Let’s go downstairs,” you know?

AA: So, it sounds like everyone agrees — it was all about the jokes, right? They were just trying to make people laugh. How do you think they used humor in their shorts, and what made it unique compared to others at the time, like Bray or Disney?

JJS: There’s a lot of humor in my shorts. (Laughter). Boy, that laugh died fast.

SD: You had me thinking, that’s why.

JJS: I just wonder if we’re reading more into it than was actually there. I think it was about making a buck and surviving. You hear the same thing when you talk to comic book artists.

MN: Absolutely, yeah.

JJS: They just wanted to work. “Hey, we’ve got this thing, we’re making movies, we’re getting exposure. My name’s up there, I guess I’m the guy.” And before they knew it, they were big — doing a lot of work and managing a lot of people who ultimately weren’t happy because they weren’t being treated the way they thought they should be treated. That’s why the Fleischers moved to Florida. Disney confronted it too: “But I’m a benevolent person who is running things. Why is everyone upset?” These guys had momentum, they had success, and I think the Fleischers were pressured into trying to compete with Disney. That's a tough one.

AA: Do you see that there was darkness in their comedy?

SD: Yeah, I do, for sure.

AA: I see it. I mean, the last one we watched was about the end of the world. It’s something that I was attracted to. There's darkness in their comedy that I think was incredibly sophisticated, and I think it’s different from what other cartoonists were doing at the time. Do you agree or disagree?

SD: That sounds right. I don’t know. There’s just a certain Fleischer flavor. Maybe darkness is part of it.

MN: Certain cynicism, I think.

JJS: It's a cartoon, let's end the world! We can do it, why not? (Laughter).

SD: I love that Fitz really wants to end the world. That’s the best part.

AA: Did Fitz become Bimbo?

MN: They were both dogs.

AA: They were both dogs, they’re not the same character?

MN: Not technically, no.

AA: Okay, speaking of characters, is Koko the Clown the first animated cartoon character?

MN: No. Gertie the Dinosaur.

AA: Gertie? Do we count Gertie as a cartoon character? Did it have enough of a personality?

MN: Sure. Yeah.

JJS: Felix happens around the same time.

MN: I love the fact that they don’t even bother to give this clown a name in the early shorts.

AA: (Laughs) It’s just the clown. The inkwell clown. Okay, here’s another thing I love about these cartoons — Max Fleischer is in them. The cartoonist is in the cartoons. Why do you think they were doing that? Was it about showing how animation is made?

SD: Walter Lantz did it too. A lot of people.

JJS: Winsor McCay.

AA: So, it was sort of a trope at the time?

JJS: Part of the whole chalk talk, yeah. You know, a stage presentation. The drawings wouldn’t have existed without the artist or something.

MN: Right. That was McCay’s shtick, basically.

SD: I will say, Max is funny.

AA: He’s really funny!

SD: He’s good. But he’s no Buster Keaton.

AA: I think there's a relationship between Max Fleischer and Koko that's very intriguing. What do you think it was? It was antagonistic.

MN: Well, if Koko is Dave, that answers a lot of questions.

AA: Oh! You think he was representing sibling rivalry?

MN: Well, we saw the picture of Dave in the clown suit, didn’t we?

SD: I mean, if you want to go political, there could be a little political thing there — the clown is the worker, and he’s messing with the boss, which is inherently funny. That’s always funny.

MN: There was a TV version years later, and Koko constantly referred to him as “the boss.”

AA: So, it’s a boss – employee relationship?

JJS: And you take revenge!

AA: That’s amazing. To wrap up, I’ll say that some of my favorite cartoonists are right here. So, I want to thank Stephen DeStefano, Mark Newgarden, and J. J. Sedelmaier for being here.

JJS: And I’ve loved Aaron’s stuff for 25 years.

AA: Thank you so much for coming, everyone. Support the arts!

Aaron Augenblick is an animator, writer, director, teacher, and creator of PBS KIDS’ ‘City Island.’ He founded Brooklyn’s Augenblick Studios, producing ‘Ugly Americans,’ ‘Superjail!,’ ‘Wonder Showzen,’ and ‘The Jellies.’